Listen now (118 mins) | We discuss the Twitter scandal I unwittingly caused by talking about the connection between children and art. What was meant as an offhand remark made people angry beyond belief. The thing, as I find out, is that “kids” are a touchy subject in left-liberal creative circles, largely because America is schizophrenic place where the economic reality and culture are very out of sync. As I
The podcast episode showed a lot of empathy for how difficult it is to raise a child, while I felt that the tweets were very dismissive. I don’t create art myself, but since having a kid, everything except my corporate job and parenting has been paused. If I were producing something, I don’t see how I could be better at it given the exhaustion and lack of time. So I understand why someone might feel enraged.
I’m a gay so I don’t give a shit about parenthood but I live in the world and have heterosexual friends; this topic is fascinating, especially the defensiveness and anger…on both sides. But you make some excellent—and freaking hilarious—points. You painted a whole, outrageously funny picture with the greying hair, sagging skin and cradling their precious poodle mixes. I die! Thank you.
As far as making great art and being a parent or not, I can't say. I'm sure there are talented and important artists with and without children.
I just read that too hot to work article and I have to say I agree with most of it. Even in social democracies there are far greater benefits available to families to help them raise their children. Here in the US everyone has to fend for themselves. Some states have childcare, etc, but it's means tested.
What's discussed in the article re: raising children and starting a family under capitalism vs socialism I've read about in the past. The older I get the more I realize just how barbaric the US can be compared to other countries.
Just started listening to this and it really resonates. I have a side hustle as an astrologer. Astrology is just a tool that distills how we perceive our reality. And children, art are all from the same source of creation, that is creation for the joy of it and not as a means to make money or get anything for yourself out of it. Art, children, life affairs are all in the exact same place in the birth chart. I discuss this a lot when reading people’s charts. Just made me think of that.
I manage to agree with all, or at least most, of the points made in this discussion but remain torn about children. I am beyond the age at which I will have more children and have one adult child who is now trying to have a child herself. I respect her decision and look forward to be a part of this child's life. That said, I wasn't much of a parent myself. I struggled to find much meaning in it and lacked the sense, that I see in so many parents, that my child was more precious than other children. My main memories of that time, now decades past, are tedium, and fear. As you mention, the U.S. is not an especially good place to have a child. Where I lived nothing about the community was designed for parents, even the parks were distant from where people actually lived. Socially there was little compromise with parents concerning schedules, childcare, money, or any other important facet of life. If you couldn't do everything that a childless person could, you were, at best, pitied in a way that rarely translated into actual kindness or assistance. I'm not sure other nations I've been to are better either. In some countries the built environment was more family and child friendly or there was more of an ethic of community based childcare. But the childcare roles tended to be rather inflexible & stiff. None of them would have been a good place to be a single parent. Parenting is in crisis under capitalism, as is life itself.
As a card-carrying breeder for the first and third acts of my long adult life, as well as a spoiled, self-involved, childless-acting womanizer for the middle third, I’m somewhat conflicted about this debate. I agree that having and rearing and being deeply involved in the lives of one’s children is deeply rewarding, connects one with the life cycle, and gives one perspective. I also know from hard-won experience that carving out a period of complete and total freedom of thought and deed and movement for a bit can also lead to great artistic output, if you can avoid self-destruction. Life is a crap shoot. I’ve stopped judging. Maybe we can all just get along a little better … um, probably not.
I'll listen a little later but what you've been getting at is the tendency for Americans of a certain social strata to aestheticize their personal choices as points of moral superiority. So you're poking at that… you get a similar freakout from the forced birth brigade when they see a woman who is happy not to have kids.
I work with many men & women who serve the public in childcare & eldercare who do not have kids—they like kids just fine & are well respected adults but don't have any of their own… I imagine that you aren't talking about people like that.
One of the greatest men I knew on a personal level was Dan Berrigan—no kids & a great artist. Nobody looked at him like an adolescent.
I’ve a kid and it hasn’t removed my cynicism or given me vivid memories of childhood. My baby is only 3 so fingers crossed it happens. If anything its made me more exhausted and fearful of the world. The influences of media, even traffic etc. but then again i don’t create any art so who knows. Your comments don’t trigger any anger in me though.
I missed the Twitter firestorm. I do disagree with you, though. Pretty much on every count. I don't think having kids either causes a person to produce great art, nor do I think it adds extra creative energy to those already doing so. But I wouldn't have guessed how pissed people would get about such a remark.
I think the argument is that having a child provides access to a taproot of human empathy as you watch your child develop and as you see yourself in other human in their roles as mothers and fathers. Evgenia acknowledges that Twitter is not the ideal place for nuanced conversations, but it is a good place to take inventory of pain points. Perhaps, it would have been better received or at least perceived as less provocative if the statement had been more about Evgenia's personal growth as an artist because of being a mother. However, I also agree with the idea that in America, we have nothing but faux freedom- free-radicle atoms who must fend for ourselves, have been taken in by the marketing that women (and men) should and could "have it all", and because of neo-liberal brain-washing don't see how essential it is to have families and States that can help support this ideology. And because we don't have that kind of support, it's hard to know what choices people would make about having children. We all just have reactive conversations about what is "best" without really being able to talk about how all social bonds are dissolved by the acetone of global capitalism. It's hard to believe in "choice" when material conditions have made the choices for us.
P.S. Love the "Freedom Torch" analysis. Had never heard about that!
Adding for clarity that the argument seems to be that the resultant empathy, joy, anxiety, seeing the world through the eyes of a child, opportunities for self-reflection *can* be a source of inspiration for artists, as well as generative for we mere mortals as well.
The nefarious Russians have been working hard in the posting mines lately. I remember the last time basically this same argument erupted on left/lib Twitter was maybe 5-6 years ago when Liz Bruenig wrote something about becoming a young mother and advocated for more state level pro child policies which set off similar arguments. While more state support for babies is a no brainer, I wonder how much that would affect the decisions of the very narrow class of people who are reacting to your posts.
Based on my fading memory of pre Bernie 2020 flameout twitter when I paid more attention to this part of the discourse, I think she was still on there after that incident. My guess is the cumulative effects and just general weirdness people had towards her eventually made her realize it’s not worth it. Anyway I think your point about people not realizing that the systems they live under effects their personal choices is a good one. Part of the reaction I’m sure is people not wanting to admit that the choices they make in many circumstances aren’t really theirs.
The podcast episode showed a lot of empathy for how difficult it is to raise a child, while I felt that the tweets were very dismissive. I don’t create art myself, but since having a kid, everything except my corporate job and parenting has been paused. If I were producing something, I don’t see how I could be better at it given the exhaustion and lack of time. So I understand why someone might feel enraged.
I’m a gay so I don’t give a shit about parenthood but I live in the world and have heterosexual friends; this topic is fascinating, especially the defensiveness and anger…on both sides. But you make some excellent—and freaking hilarious—points. You painted a whole, outrageously funny picture with the greying hair, sagging skin and cradling their precious poodle mixes. I die! Thank you.
Brilliant comments Evgenia!
As far as making great art and being a parent or not, I can't say. I'm sure there are talented and important artists with and without children.
I just read that too hot to work article and I have to say I agree with most of it. Even in social democracies there are far greater benefits available to families to help them raise their children. Here in the US everyone has to fend for themselves. Some states have childcare, etc, but it's means tested.
What's discussed in the article re: raising children and starting a family under capitalism vs socialism I've read about in the past. The older I get the more I realize just how barbaric the US can be compared to other countries.
Just started listening to this and it really resonates. I have a side hustle as an astrologer. Astrology is just a tool that distills how we perceive our reality. And children, art are all from the same source of creation, that is creation for the joy of it and not as a means to make money or get anything for yourself out of it. Art, children, life affairs are all in the exact same place in the birth chart. I discuss this a lot when reading people’s charts. Just made me think of that.
i had the same exact thought while listening!
I'll stick up for Proust and Celeste ... AND state childcare 🙂
I manage to agree with all, or at least most, of the points made in this discussion but remain torn about children. I am beyond the age at which I will have more children and have one adult child who is now trying to have a child herself. I respect her decision and look forward to be a part of this child's life. That said, I wasn't much of a parent myself. I struggled to find much meaning in it and lacked the sense, that I see in so many parents, that my child was more precious than other children. My main memories of that time, now decades past, are tedium, and fear. As you mention, the U.S. is not an especially good place to have a child. Where I lived nothing about the community was designed for parents, even the parks were distant from where people actually lived. Socially there was little compromise with parents concerning schedules, childcare, money, or any other important facet of life. If you couldn't do everything that a childless person could, you were, at best, pitied in a way that rarely translated into actual kindness or assistance. I'm not sure other nations I've been to are better either. In some countries the built environment was more family and child friendly or there was more of an ethic of community based childcare. But the childcare roles tended to be rather inflexible & stiff. None of them would have been a good place to be a single parent. Parenting is in crisis under capitalism, as is life itself.
As a card-carrying breeder for the first and third acts of my long adult life, as well as a spoiled, self-involved, childless-acting womanizer for the middle third, I’m somewhat conflicted about this debate. I agree that having and rearing and being deeply involved in the lives of one’s children is deeply rewarding, connects one with the life cycle, and gives one perspective. I also know from hard-won experience that carving out a period of complete and total freedom of thought and deed and movement for a bit can also lead to great artistic output, if you can avoid self-destruction. Life is a crap shoot. I’ve stopped judging. Maybe we can all just get along a little better … um, probably not.
I'll listen a little later but what you've been getting at is the tendency for Americans of a certain social strata to aestheticize their personal choices as points of moral superiority. So you're poking at that… you get a similar freakout from the forced birth brigade when they see a woman who is happy not to have kids.
I work with many men & women who serve the public in childcare & eldercare who do not have kids—they like kids just fine & are well respected adults but don't have any of their own… I imagine that you aren't talking about people like that.
One of the greatest men I knew on a personal level was Dan Berrigan—no kids & a great artist. Nobody looked at him like an adolescent.
We're def talking about a very certain slice of America — one that we're very close to. We talk about it on the ep.
I’ve a kid and it hasn’t removed my cynicism or given me vivid memories of childhood. My baby is only 3 so fingers crossed it happens. If anything its made me more exhausted and fearful of the world. The influences of media, even traffic etc. but then again i don’t create any art so who knows. Your comments don’t trigger any anger in me though.
I missed the Twitter firestorm. I do disagree with you, though. Pretty much on every count. I don't think having kids either causes a person to produce great art, nor do I think it adds extra creative energy to those already doing so. But I wouldn't have guessed how pissed people would get about such a remark.
I think the argument is that having a child provides access to a taproot of human empathy as you watch your child develop and as you see yourself in other human in their roles as mothers and fathers. Evgenia acknowledges that Twitter is not the ideal place for nuanced conversations, but it is a good place to take inventory of pain points. Perhaps, it would have been better received or at least perceived as less provocative if the statement had been more about Evgenia's personal growth as an artist because of being a mother. However, I also agree with the idea that in America, we have nothing but faux freedom- free-radicle atoms who must fend for ourselves, have been taken in by the marketing that women (and men) should and could "have it all", and because of neo-liberal brain-washing don't see how essential it is to have families and States that can help support this ideology. And because we don't have that kind of support, it's hard to know what choices people would make about having children. We all just have reactive conversations about what is "best" without really being able to talk about how all social bonds are dissolved by the acetone of global capitalism. It's hard to believe in "choice" when material conditions have made the choices for us.
P.S. Love the "Freedom Torch" analysis. Had never heard about that!
Adding for clarity that the argument seems to be that the resultant empathy, joy, anxiety, seeing the world through the eyes of a child, opportunities for self-reflection *can* be a source of inspiration for artists, as well as generative for we mere mortals as well.
Can I share your comments on twitter?anonymously of course.
Sure.
The nefarious Russians have been working hard in the posting mines lately. I remember the last time basically this same argument erupted on left/lib Twitter was maybe 5-6 years ago when Liz Bruenig wrote something about becoming a young mother and advocated for more state level pro child policies which set off similar arguments. While more state support for babies is a no brainer, I wonder how much that would affect the decisions of the very narrow class of people who are reacting to your posts.
Liz was chased off Twitter for this, no?
Based on my fading memory of pre Bernie 2020 flameout twitter when I paid more attention to this part of the discourse, I think she was still on there after that incident. My guess is the cumulative effects and just general weirdness people had towards her eventually made her realize it’s not worth it. Anyway I think your point about people not realizing that the systems they live under effects their personal choices is a good one. Part of the reaction I’m sure is people not wanting to admit that the choices they make in many circumstances aren’t really theirs.
Great discussion